Wisdom Rising

Integration or Intensity: Shamanism Beyond Psychedelics

• Christine Renee, Isabel Wells, and Shantel Ochoa • Season 3 • Episode 13

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Psychedelics and plant medicine have become increasingly intertwined with modern spiritual practices, but are these substances truly necessary for profound spiritual experiences? This question sits at the heart of our candid conversation about the relationship between Shamanism, plant medicine, and psychedelics.

The conversation delves into the long-term integration process of psychedelic experiences, contrasting it with conscious shamanic methods that engage both mind and spirit in real time. Using the metaphor of an escalator versus stairs, we emphasize that while both paths can lead to transformation, shamanic techniques—like breathwork and meditation—build inner strength without giving power away to external tools.

Along the way, we discuss:

  • The relationship between psychedelics, plant medicine, and spirituality
  • Questioning the necessity of substances for spiritual experiences
  • Our unique perspectives and experiences with psychedelics
  • the difference between plant medicine and psychedelics
  • Risks of giving spiritual power away to substances
  • The importance of integration after psychedelic experiences
  • The stairs vs. escalator metaphor for spiritual growth
  • The role of your subconscious mind in the use of psychedelics
  • Empowerment through conscious Shamanic techniques
  • And so much more!

The Moon Rising team brings diverse perspectives to this nuanced topic, challenging the assumption that psychedelics are necessary for spiritual growth.

Ready to expand and heal without the use of psychedelics? Our Soul Rising Shamanic Reiki program is now open for enrollment! Early Bird price ends August 31st.

Learn more about the course: https://moonrisinginstitute.com/soul-rising/

Book a FREE Discovery Call: https://calendly.com/christinerenee/10-minute-connect-call-srpt?month=2025-08

Moon Rising Shamanic Institute Links:
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Subscribe to the Newsletter: https://moonrisinginstitute.kit.com/spiritguide


Book a session with Isabel: https://calendly.com/into-the-deep/schedule

Book a FREE 15 minute connect call with Izzy: https://calendly.com/moonrisinginstitute/connect

Book a session with Christine: https://calendly.com/christinerenee/90-minutes-intensive

Book a FREE 10 minute connect call with Christine: https://calendly.com/christinerenee/10-minute-connect-call-srpt

Speaker 1:

It's time to remember your divine purpose and limitless potential. Welcome to Wisdom Rising, the official podcast of Moon Rising Shamanic Institute. Join shamanic Reiki practitioners Christine Rene, isabel Wells and Chantel Ochoa as we guide you on a journey of radical self-discovery and spiritual guidance. Each week, we'll dance through the realms of shamanism, mysticism, energy, healing and personal development to illuminate your path to true healing and self-sourced wisdom Through weekly inspired conversations and interviews with leading spiritual and shamanic practitioners. We are here to help you acknowledge, reconcile and balance your energy so that you can awaken to the whispers of wisdom rising from within. Welcome back to another amazing episode here on the Wisdom Rising podcast. In today's episode, we're diving into shamanism, plant medicine and psychedelics. For many spiritual communities, spiritual growth and plant medicine go hand in hand, and you may also think that psychedelics and shamanic journey work go hand in hand, but that's not always the case. We each have a unique perspective on the use of plant medicine and psychedelics for spiritual growth here at Moon Rising and we teach our students how to shamanic journey without needing to rely on them, and in this conversation we dive into why we talk about the differences between plant medicine and psychedelics, the importance of a ceremonial space in which to use these medicines. We talk about why an integration period is so important and why it's often skipped over. We talk about the role of your subconscious mind when you're using plant medicine and psychedelics and how the healing that you do on the subconscious level may not carry over to the conscious level. We share our own experiences with plant medicine where we believe plant medicine can be useful, why we advocate for a different perspective when it comes to psychedelics in particular, and whether or not these medicines are truly necessary for journey work, profound meditations or spiritual growth. This is a really fantastic episode. All three of us myself, christine and Chantel are back on the show to discuss our differing opinions and how they all converge. This is a great example of how our team at Moon Rising can hold our own ideas, our own energy, our own space, but we all come back together to form this really beautiful, cohesive understanding of shamanism and spiritual growth and are here to help you find your own unique path. And if you're ready to find your own unique path, I am so thrilled to announce that our Soul Rising Shamanic Reiki online program is now open for early bird enrollment.

Speaker 1:

Soul Rising is a four-month program designed to help you unlock the healing power of your subconscious mind, as we'll talk about in today's episode, while connecting you with your personal team of spirit guides, teachers, power animals, spirit animals and more. You'll learn how to journey into non-ordinary reality using shamanic techniques without having to use plant medicine, and invite in the healing power of Reiki energy. We'll also learn how to combine these skills to form a healing toolkit that will help you release past traumas, heal your limiting beliefs, step into your highest self. I absolutely love this program and I love hearing from our students about how it has changed their lives, from healing intense grief that had not moved over four years to finally feeling safe in their world and in their own body, to being able to meditate and journey and vividly experience the spirit world when they thought they never would be able to. This course is truly transformational. So you can visit moonrisinginstitutecom slash soul rising to seea collection of testimonials from our absolutely incredible students and learn more about the program. You'll also hear a little bit more about it at the end of today's episode, but remember that early bird pricing ends at the end of August.

Speaker 1:

So if you are interested in learning how to understand the three shamanic realms, how to connect with your power, animal spirit, guide and the elements in nature in a really hands-on way the theory and process of shamanic journeying, the basics of reiki sessions and get your reiki one, attunement or reattunement. We'll learn about the chakras, shamanic techniques to alter your subconscious patterns, how to heal traumas and release limiting beliefs, how to connect with and heal your inner child, over 35 activating actions to balance and heal your energy field, and so much more. If you are interested in any of this from the shamanism to the chakras, to the personal development, to the spiritual development, to the healing your subconscious and your past traumas in your inner child, we would love, love, love, to have you in the class. Spots are filling up fast and, like I said, early bird ends at the end of August. We do tailor the call schedule to meet your availability. So if that's your one hesitation, I don't know if I'll be able to make the calls. Don't worry about it, because we make sure that you can.

Speaker 1:

If you are interested but not quite sure, know that we have the option to book a free discovery call with us so we can talk about where you're at on your journey and if soul rising is right for you. The links for all of that will be down below in the show notes. And, of course, in the meantime, don't forget to subscribe and share the podcast so that we can reach more amazing spiritual individuals just like you. And be sure to join us in our Moon Rising Shamanic Mystics Facebook group, a fantastic community of over 4,500 amazing individuals who are walking this path just like you. And if you want the video companion to today's episode, be sure to head on over to our YouTube channel. But with all of that said, I hope you enjoy today's episode. Let's go to the show.

Speaker 2:

So welcome, welcome everyone.

Speaker 2:

Welcome back to another Whispers of Wisdom.

Speaker 2:

Today's conversation I'm excited to dive into because it's on psychedelics and plant medicine, and I feel like this is a conversation that is so needed because there's a lot of differing perspectives and a lot of confusion when it comes to plant medicine, work and shamanism and what we do here at Moon Rising Shamanic Institute and all of these places and spaces.

Speaker 2:

And I think one of my most exciting reasons why I want to have this conversation is because Chantel, myself and Isabel have very, very different experiences and perspectives and I really love that, like noticing how much, like I'm excited for that, because once again, I I think this comes to a place of we're not trying to create cookie cutters. We're trying to get you to think about what does this mean for you and your life and think and dive in a little deeper. And having differing opinions doesn't mean that you can't honor, respect the people around you, right? So I really like having these dynamic conversations with our team here because it goes to show that, yeah, you can hold space, you can have difficult conversations, you can have differing opinions and ultimately, I think we all end up in kind of very similar foundational space of. This is what we believe, this is why we do what we do and this is how we want to support our communities and their growth and expansion.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

All of it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

That's a start.

Speaker 2:

I know it's going to kick us off.

Speaker 1:

Well, I can. I can kick us off, because I think part of why we're having this conversation is there's often this kind of myth around shamanism that shamanism and plant medicine always go hand in hand. And there's this idea, especially when we start talking about shamanic journeys for those who are kind of just coming into the shamanic community that oh, in order to do a journey, I have to have some kind of psychedelic, some kind of plant medicine Like that is necessary for this kind of spiritual growth and experience. And right from the get-go, I kind of just want to put that myth to rest because if we actually go back to the original shamanic cultures, the use of plant medicine was actually a minority. There were only one or two tribes who were really regularly using psychedelics in their practice as a foundational part of their connection with shamanic techniques. Obviously, it's kind of shifted and changed and the prevalence has shifted, especially as it's come to the West.

Speaker 1:

But really, when we go back to the roots of shamanism, it really didn't have anything to do with plant medicine at the start. It was this idea that that altered state of consciousness that we're reaching when we go into a journey or when we go into a deep trance state. We're doing that through the beating of the drum, we're doing that through dancing, we're doing that through shaking, we're doing that through staring at a fire. We're doing it through these techniques where we are connecting more deeply to nature so that our mind kind of gets put to rest and our spirit can go do the journey without being hindered by our mind. And obviously that sounds really similar to what happens when we're using plant medicine.

Speaker 1:

But the emphasis in shamanic techniques was that we are doing the work when we're conscious, when we're awake, when we're aware, to clear out our limiting beliefs, to clear out the gunk that's in our mind, so that we become a hollow bone, so that when we go to journey, when we go listen to the drumbeat, stare at the fire, do the things we're already clear. It's not that I think a lot of times there's kind of this assumption that we need the plant medicine to put our minds and our egos to the side so that our spirit can go and do what it needs to do. But in shamanism for the most part there's obviously some exceptions, but for the most part the emphasis was on we need to be doing the work when we're awake, when we're conscious, in our daily life to do that, clearing ourselves so that when we journey we're already there, we don't need the plant medicine to reach that state. Anything to add to that, you guys, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I feel, yeah, go ahead, Go ahead, Christine. Well, I want to also clarify too on the difference between like plant medicine the way we're speaking about it now and like psychedelics, right, Like I feel like in shamanism, you see, all the time, plant medicine can be the tea that you're brewing out of nettles. It can be the cacao that you're drinking. It can be like there's a lot of different kinds of plant medicine and what we really want to be focusing on today in this conversation is where that, that intentional, purposeful use comes into plant medicine. That is, has a psychedelic purpose, Right, and so there cause, there I mean all plants can be some type of medicine. Right, there's so many different kinds of medicine. Like I was just in Yellowstone and I it was like I'm going with the purpose of intention of having Buffalo medicine, like getting in touch with the land to receive buffalo medicine and be a part of Yellowstone. Right, Like there's medicine in that. And what are we talking about here when we talk about plant medicine and then its use as a psychedelic?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was going to say.

Speaker 3:

Is that, knowing the difference between the two, like as we both started, we started burning Palo Santo, that is plant medicine, right, when we're talking about burning sage smudging, when we're going out and we're seeking plant medicine through our teas and all of that, that is plant medicine and that's totally different than what we're talking about, yeah, with using psychedelics to have that enlightenment or to get into that trance state which we don't need.

Speaker 3:

And we know that because we're proof of that here at Soul Rising, at Moon Rising, and the work that we do through our shamanic practices is to be able to journey and to, in our conscious state of being, to set that intention and to journey where we need to go to receive the messages that we are seeking.

Speaker 3:

And also, with that is like because I know here I've spoke about dreams and I'm also like, as you know, I work with people who are really deep dreamers, who are they go do the work. At the same time, it's like we need to still be conscious, not in our sleeping state, to always go to do the work, but to be awake, to be aware, to know we're setting that intentions, we are communing with our guides, with our higher self, with source, to be able to receive the messages that we need without having some kind of altered state, whether it's psychedelics. It's even like when we're doing breath work and all that that, can you know, become a form of like pulling us into that trance state. But does it mean that we're enhancing our brain with it or that we're switching our mind up by the force of some form of medicine and plant?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely I. I feel like there's so much confusion or hype. I think, really, it's become more and more and more accessible, just like cannabis became more and more accessible. And now, like you know, the state of Oregon, like you can do any kind of any kind of psychedelics and it's it's legal right, like there's and there's so many more studies on psychedelics right, and so there's a huge conversation that we can have just on psychedelics, but what we're doing is like, in the version of like, when is it appropriate for shamanic work? When are we coming at this from not a recreational standpoint but an intentional plant medicine standpoint, and I think so. Those are all the different dynamics that I really want to dive into, touch on, feel into and get curious about during this conversation.

Speaker 1:

And you know, something that comes to mind for me as soon as we start talking about plant medicine and psychedelics and I think that differentiation is so important of understanding that in shamanism we connect with the spirit of the plants and the animals and all of it. We connect with the spirits of nature to do our healing work, because they each have their unique medicine, right, and so, like you guys are saying, those teas giving the tree a hug, right, that's all plant medicine, the Palo Santo you were burning. And then we have this aspect of psychedelics where it's shifting our consciousness and I think for me, one of the biggest mindset shifts that I see when it comes to using psychedelics or mind-altering substances in your practice is that a lot of times it comes with this unintentional subconscious giving away of your power. It's like you look to the plant, you look to the medicine that you're using as this kind of embodied personification, which is beautiful, right, because that's again that's a very shamanic thing, like thinking about Mama Aya for those who do ayahuasca, or the frog for those who do cambo, right, there's this reverence for the substance itself, which is very shamanic, but what happens? That kind of shifts us out of a shamanic lens and into a lens that I find can be in certain circumstances pretty detrimental, is that we stop seeing it as a partner or a co-facilitator or a colleague, in a way, like a partner on our healing path, on our path to discovering more about ourselves in the world, and we start to see it as this thing that we need in order to remove the parts of ourselves we don't like and call back in the parts of ourselves that we do. And it's a really subtle shift from how those substances would have been used in a ceremonial, shamanic context, because, again, we are having reverence for the substance, we are having reverence for nature. But it was very much in this understanding that we are just as much a part of this cosmic web, just as much a part of the important work that's happening, as the substance that we're using. We're partners in that.

Speaker 1:

And I think today in the plant medicine and psychedelic community, I really see a lot of this feeling of you're kind of giving away your power to the substance and feeling like you need it. In order to do the healing work, in order to journey, in order to progress, you need the substance. And anytime we talk about psychedelics, I always think about I was talking with one of my mentors a few years ago who began his journey with LSD and mushrooms and like really advanced hardcore psychedelics all the time, and he said that eventually it got to a point where he was on a trip, on a journey quote unquote not a shamanic journey, but a psychedelic journey, and he had developed a relationship with his guides through doing this. And at one point the guide put him in a house in the middle of this journey and was like you are using the drugs, you're using the psychedelics to look out the window. When there's a door right here, you have to stop looking out the window and you have to walk through the door.

Speaker 1:

And I think that that's such a beautiful metaphor because there is so much that we can learn from those experiences. There's so much that we can learn from those altered states of consciousness. But the moment that we start relying on those to do the work, relying on those to achieve the altered state, we have lost a piece of ourselves because we don't need them. They're a tool, just like everything else that we do. But the moment that we start giving away our power to this thing and saying that we can't do the work, we can't heal, we can't progress, we can't whatever, unless we have this substance. That bond of sacred reciprocity has been broken, because now the energy flow between you is unequal, and I find that that can be really detrimental.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I also feel that not only can we be giving our power away to the medicine, but we're also giving our power away to the facilitator, whether it's a shaman, it's a medicine woman, man, whatever. But people are giving their power away to the facilitator, whether it's a shaman, it's a medicine woman, man, whatever. But we give you know, people are giving their power away to that, expecting them to be holding this really strong sacred space for them and knowing that when, if you're in a you know, doing ayahuasca or not, if you're in a group setting, where do you think all that energy is going if that shaman or the facilitator isn't strong in their own medicine to be able to hold that space right? There is that sharing of energy that's being released and if we're just there open, crown, open, everything open that's when entities can come in, attachments come in. There's this sharing of energetic exchange that starts to occur between the people that are participating and they're not able to really, in the moment, hold space for themselves because they're under. You know, they're under, they're feeling high, they're traveling, they're journeying, whatever's going on.

Speaker 3:

And I think that a lot of times when people leave, I don't feel in the very beginning, because when I've worked with a lot of clients. I find that some come forward and they're like. They're like shattered or there's like a fragment that has occurred because we're pushing through, we're not naturally awakening to the gifts that are occurring for us, we're forcing us through the veil and sometimes the mind our physical and our mind can't handle that. It becomes too much and I've even seen people who have had really deep corded attachments to the facilitator and it's like unhealthy because that person becomes powerful or overpowers them in their thought processes, their decision making, everything. And then people tend to go. It becomes like, yeah, like hanging out and smoking cannabis.

Speaker 3:

It's like suddenly I need to go do ayahuasca every weekend. It's like, no, that's not what this is made Traditionally. There's like a rite of passage that comes through. There's a reason and purpose of why people within shamanism and tribes and everything, or you know, in cultures that do plant medicine, is because they are in that rite of passage. They're growing from one version of themselves to another. They're going to see through the veil, they're doing the vision quest or whatever that their purpose is. There is true intention.

Speaker 3:

It's not just like in society now where it's like oh hey, do you guys want to go do ayahuasca this weekend. There is great preparation to go do that and then great integration that follows and it's just, it's become I feel it's too much. I don't, I'm not against it at all. I've had my fair share of plant medicine, not ayahuasca per se, but of my own.

Speaker 3:

But yeah, I just think that sometimes it becomes too much in society right now and the identity like, oh, have you done that? Like it's a cool thing. It's like, yeah, it just keeps leveling, oh, you haven't done that, then you don't know. And it's like I was listening to someone the other day telling me how she can take high, high doses of shrooms and I'm like and then I could do this and I can do that, and I'm like I can do that sober. You know, it was like I journey and can receive that same experience. And it wasn't anything against her, but it was more like you don't have to take four grams of shrooms to get into that trance state to go and journey and receive the messages that you meant to.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, sometimes it feels like this is the little easy shortcut and they now are using it like a crutch Right, and I think you're totally spot on. There's a lot of um, there's a lot of people out there just transferring their power into the facilitator and I I definitely haven't haven't had a lot of like personal experiences with a lot of different kinds of plant medicine and have a lot of reverence, and it also is very, incredibly important to me to know who is the facilitator. I have such a high standard for who's offering this medicine, what their background is Like. I interview hardcore for any type of and it's and it's very intentional. What's the purpose? Why am I entering this, this space of having this psychedelic experience, right Like I, and I I saw myself um, you know waiver in this, like so many people do like there's times where it's been held reverently, intentionally months of preparation, weeks of preparation, changing your diet, coming to the medicine, standing in that place and then getting and and having an amazing supportive experience and then swinging the other direction on the pendulum where it's like everyone's like this is so cool, let's do LSD. And go to the concert direction on the pendulum where it's like everyone's like this is so cool, let's do LSD and go to the concert and blah, blah, blah and going like. Well, this is the thing. Totally different intention no preparation before or after. Like you're, you're coming into the space of like, all right, the intention is to have some fun in the space of like. All right, the intention is to have some fun and the tension is to have a mind altering experience for the concert or whatever it will be. And then going afterwards, going what, the what was that? Never again, you know like.

Speaker 2:

I've had more experiences of like, recognizing when the experience experience wasn't held reverently and just recreationally. Those are the experiences that I'm like. That wasn't worth it, that wasn't what I wanted to experience, that was too much. That was. I wasn't in the company of people who were reverent. They were in the, they were, they were playing around, messing around, and because they're not energetically aware, they don't know what the hell they're doing and they're they're not seeing the attachments that are flying in, they're not seeing the, the negativity that is possible of attaining during that time and how, what, how many cause.

Speaker 2:

We all have an integration period where, whether or not there is intention in the, in the use, there's still an integration period where your brain is malleable Right and so, and then, and watching myself go wow, I was in this experience for this many hours, which meant that there's this many days or weeks of integration period, and having to now take all of that integration time, cleansing, healing from that experience, and I think that people just don't realize how much integration our brains go through every time we do plant medicine.

Speaker 2:

So, if this is something that you're doing every week, I'm going to go do mushrooms and hang out with my friends. I'm going to go do LSD and go to the concert. I'm going to go do mushrooms and hang out with my friends. I'm going to go do LSD and go to the concert. I'm going to go right, like this is the new. Uh, well, I don't know how new it is, but it feels that way, like this is the new, hip, popular thing to do. And I think that there is, um, really an understanding that I want to bring forward of like. Really an understanding that I want to bring forward of like how does it resonate with me? What is the intention behind this thing that I'm about to do? How can I protect myself and keep myself safe and give myself the time of integration and preparation, like all of that is so incredibly needed when we do any kind of psychedelic work.

Speaker 1:

The other aspect of that with the integration period that I think gets lost sometimes is, let's say that we're going on a shamanic journey. Right, we have our opening period, we're opening the circle, we're calling the directions, we're doing our smudging, we're making this really beautiful, solid, sacred space. We do the journey. It's maybe 15 minutes and then we come back and we have 30 minutes to an hour of journaling, of discussion of what did that mean for you, of all these things. Right, and one of the things that really shifts for our students is the way that I like to explain it is what happens in the journey does not matter. It doesn't matter if all you see is a bluebird or you hear a cricket or you have an entire movie showing up in your vision, it doesn't matter. What matters is when you come back and you are then pulling it apart and figuring out what did it mean for you? What was the story, what's the lesson, what's the importance, what's the detail when you can bring back what you received from the spiritual realm and integrate it into your physical reality. Right, and theoretically, that's the intention behind the integration piece of when you work with psychedelics or plant medicine, but what I find is that more often than not, the integration becomes, like you said, this healing phase where you've taken a bit of a hit, like your energy has taken a hit from whatever you experienced on your trip, on your journey, whatever it was, and you have to go and integrate. I can't tell you how many times we've had students who come to shamanism from plant medicine and, before they know how to journey, they'll come into class and they'll say you know, I did ayahuasca this weekend, I did cambo, I did something and I had this really huge trauma from when I was three come up, and so I'm just in this deep integration process. Or I ended up having a panic attack when I came back because there was just so much that I didn't realize. Right, like these moments of like. I came back and wow, now I have all of this stuff. And so integration becomes this period of almost like calming yourself down so that you can step back into the medicine. And from my perspective and obviously everyone has their own opinion everyone is completely entitled to their own experience, their own path, their own journey, all of it right. But from my perspective, having watched students go through the healing journey using plant medicine and go through the healing journey using shamanic journeys and not plant medicine.

Speaker 1:

What I find is that there is so much more pain and upheaval and purging and wounding that happens in the plant medicine field. And the reason that I say that is because, again, when we go to journey, our conscious mind is still present. It's not calling the shots, right. Our goal is to be that hollow bone so that we can put our mind to the side and recognize when we're in journey. Is this coming from myself or is this coming from spirit? That's really the intention. That's the reason that we clear ourselves out.

Speaker 1:

But when we go and do especially really hardcore psychedelics right, what happens is our conscious mind turns off. It's not that it's present, but just in the back seat it's gone. Our conscious mind is gone, our conscious filter is gone and our subconscious is blown open wide right. And that's part of why people love psychedelics, because it opens up your subconscious networks for healing. But the problem is that when you go into a psychedelic journey and your subconscious mind is blown open and you're pulling up the traumas or the limiting beliefs or the wounds or whatever it is that are ready to be purged and let go of and healed when you come back from that and your conscious mind comes online.

Speaker 1:

Your conscious mind didn't do any of the work in that journey with you. Your conscious mind essentially went to sleep and woke up with a new memory of trauma, of pain, of wounding, of a limiting belief, of a difficult energy, of the heaviness of the purging. Even if you didn't come back aware of trauma, it now has the memory of all of the purging that you did on that trip. Right, and now your conscious mind, your conscious filter, are back online and are stuck with it. Because again, that integration period then becomes holy shit. I need to calm myself down and we can put it in a beautiful light.

Speaker 1:

Right, we can say that, oh, my body did so much purging, my energy shifted so much, my subconscious cleared out a lot, and that can absolutely be true.

Speaker 1:

But it doesn't change the fact that you as a conscious human, once you're awake again, are now stuck with all of that.

Speaker 1:

And if you don't have the tools, if you don't have the facilitators, if you don't have the mentors, if you don't have the ability to do shamanic journey or the coaching techniques or whatever you need EMDR, whatever it is for you if you don't have the tools that are then going to be able to help your conscious mind, your full self process, understand, integrate, release and heal through everything that came up. Now you're just sitting with it and it can feel liberating because now you have so much more self-awareness, right. But at the end of the day, what I find is that it often, in the long term, feels heavier because it's come from your subconscious, where your brain was doing a really beautiful job of keeping it protected, and it's now just in the light and on the surface and you've got to walk with that until you find the tools that help you actually do the processing. And often that's when students come and find us and find shamanism and classes like Soul Rising Right.

Speaker 2:

It's because as things kind of trickle because it's a trickle when you learn how to shamanic journey what is ready to be healed will come to the surface. It's not that we're digging for things. It's going to percolate forward as you are ready to heal it, and I think that is the biggest difference.

Speaker 3:

And then, and I think too with it, is that there isn't that integration period following plant medicine ceremony. You know there's a period with you know, maybe the following hour or whatever, but I don't know. I don't feel like there's like this ongoing support system to for those who go and partake, right, and if so, it's well, you're going to come back and do another round of it. It's not. We're going to sit into this integration period and then have some form of coaching or counseling or here's the techniques to move through it. It's going to be more of. You're going to come back and keep redoing the plant medicine and that just keeps reopening it and it is going on some level searching for those old scars, right, what is that needs to come up? Because whatever is ready to come up does surface. That's the shadow work of the plant medicine. Is what are we suppressing? That's ready to come to the surface. But, like you're talking about Isabel, if you're not there consciously to process those things and be aware of what's coming up, and then suddenly you come out of this experience and now what was in the past is now in your present, you're like whoa, wait a minute, what just happened here? And that happens for a lot of people, and then that is when they end up in our spaces, right, and I tell people, it's not a surprise to me that you show up in a Reiki room and a Reiki masters, you know healing space, because they are seeking what has not worked for them and then they're like, okay. And on the other point is being sure that you know where the plant medicine is coming from and you know, like a lot of people who are doing LSD and all that the not medicine, but drugs that are happening now, whatever you're taking plant medicine, whatever you're taking, it's not the same as it used to be. There's a lot of synthetic things that are being put into this and there's a lot of fentanyl and different stuff, right, so people are really truly trusting in what's coming forward.

Speaker 3:

And if they're not doing the research on the facilitator's background, where are they coming from? Because there's a lot of people that are self-identified as shamans, right, and really even shamans don't identify themselves as shamans. They're called the shamans by their people, not by themselves. And so even here we have shamanic techniques, but none of us really are saying, hey, we're shamans until we have gone to the jungle and we have been labeled and, you know, have gone through that rite of passage for it.

Speaker 3:

It you know me, I practice shamanic practices. However, I have the shaman heart, like I know that you know, like that resonates with me. But I don't claim myself as that, but as a facilitator, I've gone through trainings upon trainings and to be able to hold space for people that are coming forward to do the shamanic work, to do the journeys to go through and to see through the veil for themselves, to guide them and to have the practice that follows the integration process of it, to come in and to have more. Because, even if you're looking at doing Reiki attunements right, there is that process of preparing. We're fasting, we're journaling, we're sitting with ourself, we are integrating ourselves into what we're getting ready to go.

Speaker 3:

Do it's not just oh, you heard of Reiki, come on in, let's, you know, attune you. How many people have we met like that, that have never even known about Reiki, and then they get attuned and it's like their whole world flips upside down because they didn't even know what to expect, because there was no process of preparation for them. And so we have to look at all of this with the reverence that we're talking about whether it is leveling ourselves up in our journey work, whether that's doing attunements and having our energy really advance and rise, or it's taking plant medicine. But we have to do the work for ourselves to understand where we're going, because it shifts. You aren't the same person when you come out of it, so we have to look at how is this going to affect me in the long run.

Speaker 1:

You know what it reminds me of is I think it was last year our team did a plant medicine psychedelic experience and it was really interesting leading up to it because we had Christina and I had a friend that we were talking to and she was telling me oh, I did that psychedelic a couple years ago I think it was like a year and a half at that point and she was like it completely blew my mind open. Nothing I knew before I went in was real. Everything's a lie. Like everything's an illusion, like her mind was just blown open. And basically what she was trying to tell me because it was my first time with this particular substance what she was trying to tell me was be careful, like it's going to be scary, it's going to be hard, you're going to lose yourself, so just be prepared. Right Was essentially the essence of it and I was like, okay, you know, I can see that that was your experience. I can see that that really rocked you, like it really shifted her, because I knew her before and after and it was a big difference from when I knew her before to when I knew her after and I came out of the psychedelic experience and I think the first thing I told Christina Chantel was that wasn't anything I haven't experienced in a shamanic journey Like there. It was just and that's not me trying to be prideful or anything like that it's just really for me highlighting that all three of us came out of that experience and it was Chantel and I's first time All three of us came out of that experience with a new understanding of ourselves, a new perspective, right. I definitely had some things come up that I integrated for the next year, right, and that was really beautiful. But I think that the reason I was able to do that is because I had such a strong foundation of journey work, of these things right, and it was interesting because, going into it, our facilitator, who we all really trusted, we did screenings with her. We had like weeks of preparation, all the things right.

Speaker 1:

One of the things that they check in the screening is do you have a history of mental health disorders in yourself or your family? My parents both have some very interesting mental health disorder history and she said I know you, I know the work that you do, I think you're going to be okay, even though you have the history of it right and that, and to have that kind of faith put in me, but then also to have that faith in myself, right, not just because she said it, but to know, walking in, that I'm going to be fine. I'm not worried about what might come through from my past or from my lineage or whatever it is, because I know the work I do. I know the footsteps that have led me to this place. I know the work that I can do after if anything comes up. I know that I have this sacred container. I know that I have my friends. I have Christine and Chantel here to hold space for me, right, like I know no matter what, that I am solid.

Speaker 1:

And then to go into that experience with that security, with that knowing, and come out and say it really wasn't anything different than anything I've experienced in a journey, was a really cool experience because it really just solidified for me that this is what we're talking about.

Speaker 1:

That space we can achieve with shamanic work, we can achieve with mindset work, we can achieve, like Chantel said earlier, sober. And that doesn't take away from the fact that plant medicine or psychedelics can be a fantastic tool or a fantastic addition or something that, when used in reverence and in ceremony and really intentionally, can absolutely add something to your practice, but I don't think that we need to be relying on it to achieve these states or to have this healing, because at that point we're just again saying I'm not enough as I am, I'm not worthy as I am, I'm still broken, I still need to release, I still need to purge, I still need to find pieces of myself, I still need to expand my awareness and I need this plant to do it. And even if we're not saying that out loud, that's kind of the undercurrent that I find runs underneath it a lot of the time.

Speaker 2:

You know it's so interesting, because I come to this place too, of like I can recognize, like, if I, like my first time doing ayahuasca, I have been doing shamanic journey work for, at that point, 14 years, you know, and I was like cool, like like it was like everyone's having these really big emotional processes and I'm just gliding through, right, and it's because of all of the work that I do in my spirit world, right and and, and I've spent a lot of time reflecting of like what, what are we trying to get out of these experiences? What am I trying to absorb? What do I, what am I trying to feel? Because so many people are coming at this, even from a recreational, like a psychedelic use, as a recreational thing, like what are we trying to feel? And so often my conclusion is they're trying to feel moments of bliss, they're trying to find moments of ecstasy, they're trying to find moments of their aliveness, they're trying to find moments of connection with spirit, right, and so then it's like, how do you cultivate those things without giving your power to a substance, without giving your power to a facilitator, without you know what I mean? And so it's like, okay, so now I'm just like all right, well, let's dive in how do I live an ecstatic, blissful life and, as things come forward in it, as a sober person, how do I reflect on, how do I get curious about, how do I dive in deeper and how watching it unfold at a healthy pace instead of like all at once Right?

Speaker 2:

And I know this is why I kind of fell in love with breath work, like understanding that holotrophic breathing can elicit your own innate DMT in your lungs so that you can have these psychedelic experiences. But the cool thing about it is that you are in power the whole time. You can change your breathing at any time to bring yourself back down Right and things can come out of that Right. Or, um, like I'm doing a ton of somatic processing and breath work and movement work and like really understanding my physical container to really elicit an ecstatic body right, a blissful body. And so I've been doing a lot of Tantra work and the Tantra work has led me to walking around and like this really high blissful state.

Speaker 2:

And there was a moment, not very recently, where I was like, oh my God, I feel like I'm on ecstasy, I feel like I am under you know this psychedelic medicine and I haven't had that in a very long time and yet it's now in, it's now accessible without taking something, and I know how to elicit it and bring it on, and I know how to calm it down and contain it, and I can be in the powerful position of controlling my own energy field. And I feel like when I'm there, here, I am feeling into my ecstatic state of being, without any kind of plant medicine, and getting visions and talking to the land and drinking the teas and like being in the state of harmony with the earth, harmony with myself, harmony with my partner, you know, like all of the things. And it's like there's so um, and things show up like the, the um, the, the, any kind of thing that shows up. Then I can get really, really curious about it's a timeout.

Speaker 2:

Why did I see it that way? Why did it show up that way? And so this last Saturday I I led a shamanic Reiki day retreat and it was so beautiful in the fact of like here we are all sober and I'm guiding them into ecstatic states of being where they're opening up their energy field. There we were doing luminous body energy work, where they're open to feeling their energetic state in a new way, without any plant medicine. Right, there's so many different ways to elicit the same type of results that we're trying to get out of plant medicine in a sober way and a healthy way and an ease and flow way and a harmonious way right, it's just really I get curious. I'm like this is so much, it's so much more supportive to our, to our bodies.

Speaker 3:

It really is it. You know it might be. Some might feel like it's the slower process of it. Right, and it is.

Speaker 1:

I'm like yes.

Speaker 3:

There's a lot of learnings and teachings that we have to do. We become the student when we're learning how to do breath work, when we're learning how to do the journey work and all that. But then what you become is the master of self, right, and that's what I really embrace with the work that we do and what I have learned as a student becoming a facilitator of it and now doing that on a daily basis. When my higher mind just opens up and starts flooding me with the information I need or a visual that I need because I'm asking, I'm seeking answers, right, so I can connect to that, I don't. It's like you even get to a point where you sometimes don't even need to go right into Journey, right, you just open up that space within you and you go okay, what do even need to go right into journey? Right, you just open up that space within you and you go, okay, what do I need to receive right now? And so for me, it's like really tuning into our discernment and, like my whole, you know, I've always like, say, cannabis, I've always smoked, right.

Speaker 3:

And then when I started doing my Reiki journey, I had to quit because it was taking me to a place of where I wanted to literally heal everything and I was like, well, how annoying is this? I can't even relax with it. I feel you, I got to Reiki you, I'm Reiki-ing the whole world and yeah, it's fun and it's really intense at times. But I stopped for like over three years and then now, if I do partake, it's not like that, like I can just journey, I can just be, I can be chill mode, but it's because I let myself get to the point of where it was no longer controlling me and I could be conscious in it. And I think that's the difference Is, if you're just taking and taking and taking, you're not in control. And then that's where we have to say why am I doing this Right? What is the purpose of it? What's the point in it? And if the point is just to have a good time, then try to at least do it in a way that is, within a sacred space. We have to be our own containers and hold space for ourselves, and that's what I was talking about before. It's like if we're going to even go and experience that, my suggestion to people is create your own sacred space before you take the medicine. Don't just trust the facilitator is going to do it for you. So create that sacred space. Close your doors at the end. Close it, give thanks to it, do your part on it and even, like you were saying, isabella, it took you a year to process.

Speaker 3:

You know your integration process for the one experience that we had. That is so key for people to understand it's not a week, it's not a couple of days. It literally can be a year of processing the emotions and the energy that came because of that, even though you do deep journey work, right, you do that work and so still, that was processing some things for you. And there's even times where stuff will still come up and I'm like, oh, that's interesting Getting curious about it again. But it's understanding why it's showing up and having the facilitator, like we have each other, we can come back. What are you getting out of that? What do you feel in this right, making sure our community too is supportive and not just like, oh, what you know, and I think a lot of people, they just are not in those conscious levels to say, hey, you know what?

Speaker 3:

You're probably integrating some of the work that you did with that plant medicine experience and maybe that needs to become a conversation that people start having with each other when you are taking it, and not just like, oh, you're going to have a gathering at your house this Saturday, okay, let's all pop gummies, or we're going to do this, we're going to do that.

Speaker 3:

It still should be within ceremony of it so that everyone is protected, because as we all collectively start raising our conscious awareness, we're all sharing stuff.

Speaker 3:

Everything is being shared energetically, and if somebody who's an empath doesn't know how to protect their energy isn't solid in their container, they're going to be the ones that are going to absorb everything that's being released in that conversation.

Speaker 3:

So it's bringing in sacred tobacco, offering it to the land, giving thanks to the land for absorbing the conversation that we're having, or thanks to the trees that we're sitting around, however that is, but we need to give back to the earth too that we're sitting around, however that is, but we need to give back to the earth too, because even if all we're doing is sitting and having a conversation like an inner, like not energetic, but like an emotional purge, right, where is that energy going? It's being shared between us, it's being shared to the land, it's going out into the collective energy and we need, as people, to get to that awareness of, yes, doing an offering, giving thanks, having gratitude for nature for absorbing it, and making sure that those who are very sensitive, that they understand they need to be extra protective of themselves so that they don't leave feeling extremely heavy from the conversation that they just had Right, and also giving yourself if you found yourself in that company, giving yourself some self-forgiveness and giving yourself some grace of going, wow, that was an experience and I'm going to check in with myself of like, do I want to do that again?

Speaker 2:

Because now I'm having to energetically clean and purge all of these things, all of these things, and knowing that like I think I found myself in that space time and time again in 2024 with the company I kept like thinking that, wow, this is great, fun and play, and then going, Whoa, I am just absorbing all of it and going, I'm no longer available for this. And how do I want to switch and where am I going and what support do I need and how do I need to get clean and clear my energy Right, Like, and I, and so I want to also just put out there, like, if you have been participating in this way, without a lot of conscious, intentional thought, going into your practices, taking a moment to go, is this, am I getting out of this what I want? Am I, am I, is this really serving me? Is this helping support me in my life path? Or is it actually something that I'm using to emotionally suppress and push things down and ignore Because I'm just going to. As soon as it comes up again, I'm going to take another dose of mushrooms or whatever it may be Like. How are we using this to to bypass what is meant for us to look at Right?

Speaker 2:

And so I see all of that happening and seeing a lot of really beautiful people who are turning to to plant medicine as a way of opening and expanding their mind, but not with a lot of intentional preparation or integration, because they just don't, you just don't, sometimes you just don't know any better, or you think the intention of play and fun is enough to keep that like, keep it in that container of play and fun. I don't want anything else. And going, wow, there's so much more, and so where can you say yes to support? Where can you say yes to? I want so much more, and so where? Where can you say yes to support? Where can you say yes to I want to learn more? Where can you say yes to what? If I could do all of these cool things without needing to give my power to a plant or to this facilitator or to this thing?

Speaker 1:

And I think there's an aspect of there too, like where can you say yes to listening to your intuition about? Is the way that you're using, the amount that you're using, the container that you're using in, whether or not you are using? Is that all in alignment with your intuition, with what you want to get out of it, like you were saying, with what your intention is, with your values as a soul, as a human? Is this in alignment with you? Because if it's not, you'll know deep down, even if it's buried a little bit, if there's that nudge in you, if this conversation kind of sparked something in you, it's an opportunity to get curious and I think there's nothing that the three of us are saying that we think it's wrong or bad or it shouldn't happen. It's what's the intention behind it? Where's the ceremony? Is it an alignment with you, with your values, with your intuition? And, as Chantal was talking about, you know, being in control versus having the medicine have control over you.

Speaker 1:

I think that's a fantastic way of putting it and the image that I got in my head was stairs versus an escalator. Like, you can take the escalator, you can stand on the escalator, your body doesn't have to move, you don't have to do anything. It's going to take you up, right. But we all know that it's really important to know how to take the stairs, because your body needs that, your mind needs that. That activity is going to get your energy moving, your blood pumping, it's going to make you stronger to actually do the work, to walk up the stairs. And there's nothing wrong with taking the escalator sometimes, right. Sometimes we need that support, and actually it works out as a metaphor too, because, like if you have baggage with you, right, like if you are going to the airport with your bag, sometimes you want the escalator to help, kind of give you that little support that push up to the top.

Speaker 1:

But if you don't know how to use the stairs, then it's ultimately rooted in a place of fear. It's ultimately rooted in a place of lack, because it's coming from this belief that you can't do this on your own, that you couldn't reach the same place if you were just walking, if you were doing the work, if you were using your own power, and so you need something else to have the power for you. And that is ultimately where we're calling for a shift, where we're calling for an invitation to look at and say is that the assumption that you're operating under? And can we be an example of the fact that using the stairs is just as effective, doing this on your own, doing this sober, doing the work this way is just as effective and will make your time on the escalator much more enjoyable. Because it's then rooted in this self-esteem, this knowing that I could take the stairs.

Speaker 1:

I could do that, I know how to do it, but I'm choosing to do this this one time. I'm choosing to do this with intention. I'm choosing to do this this one time. I'm choosing to do this with intention. I'm choosing to let myself have that support, knowing that I don't need it.

Speaker 2:

Right? Well, and I love this metaphor too, because if you kind of look at the baggage, if you're taking the escalator with your baggage, you're going to come right down the escalator with your baggage, most likely, like you might've unzipped it along the way and might've grabbed something out and typically you shoved it back in and you went down the escalator, whereas if you're taking the stairs, there's so many opportunities to take a seat on the stair, open up the bag, look through it, go. You know, I actually don't need this thing that I'm carrying, or I don't need that and I have the support to to sit and observe and look into what is it all I'm carrying? Do I need it anymore or not? Maybe I just need to ditch the whole fucking backpack along the way. Like you have these opportunities when you're walking slowly up the stairs to go wow, this is fucking heavy and I don't want to carry it anymore, right.

Speaker 2:

And so I think this is why I am such an advocate of slow and steady growth, like because it's sustainable, and I think that's what I love about how we operate. It's like it's okay to go slow and steady. I would much rather do a four month program where the stairs are going to be long, right the stairs, but every single step you're like hey, do you need any help? Here's a, here's a tool that can help unlock this thing. And you know, when you hit this level of the stairs, we're going to take a break and we're going to integrate and we're going to have a pause and then there's going to be another flight of stairs and you can go at your own pace along the journey path. And I think that's the difference, because once you know the staircase, then it's just fucking muscle memory. Right, you've got it ingrained, you've done the work, you've unpacked your bag along the way.

Speaker 3:

I think that was a great visual. It really was. And knowing that that is how it is and it's having the next flight of stairs and everything, because you can take the break Once you do the plant medicine, there's no break, you're in it, you are full blown in it. There's no stopping, there's no like hey, I'm just going to put a pause on this experience right now. It's like, no, you're in it, and so what comes from it? You don't always know, but I do love that metaphor of how you can take it the fast route, or you can take it the slow and steady way. That is very sustainable, and know that every day. It's accessible to you. You don't have to go take something to do it.

Speaker 3:

You wake up, you're like you know what? I need a journey this morning. Okay, I'm in bed, I'm going to do my thing right here, right now, call it in and I've done my journey for the morning, or I'm going to close my day out in it, or whatever. I'm at work, I'm having a moment. What do I need to know about the situation? I'm going to go take a journey. I'll be back in 15 minutes. You know it literally. Is that fast, that easy, once you have taught yourself how to do it and through, like working with the techniques that we, we here, that we do teach right, and then you take them in your life and that's your new baggage. You can drop down the old baggage, pick up this new toolbox along the way on your staircase and say you know what? These are really here to help me and to help me grow and evolve into this space and place within myself that I can go do the work.

Speaker 2:

Right, right, and I think this is why I'm already so excited for soul rising starting in about a month, because this is what we're doing, this is what we get to do. I'm so honored and privileged to walk along that staircase with our students and while you journey, I get a journey. While you get a look at your limiting beliefs, I'm looking at mine, you journey, I get a journey. While you get a look at your limiting beliefs, I'm looking at mine. While you are exploring what your childhood wounds are, I'm going. I'm kind of also self-analyzing and assessing going.

Speaker 2:

Is there anything left that I still need to heal from this? And it's an opportunity to continuously reflect, continuously look, and I and maybe that's just my personality right, like I just don't ever think that there is an end game goal of like being quote unquote healed. I'm done now I'm, I'm ecstatic to be fully living life and wanting things to continuously get better and better. And with these tools I mean there's over, like I think there's 35 to 40 different techniques Most of them are shamanic techniques of how to really work through and make your life the spiritual oasis sanctuary that you want it to be. Right and it, it, it takes work to get there and the fact that, yeah, we all have fucking baggage and we get to choose what we're carrying and what we're ready to heal and what we're ready to release and what tools we want to pick up along the way, that's going to support us, and so it's just a really beautiful opportunity and program that we're going to be stepping into very soon.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and I think one of the things that I love about it is that it really does kind of have this double-edged approach of we're diving really deep into the basics of shamanism the chakras, shadow work, inner child healing, shamanic journeys all of the techniques so that you are learning how to walk the shamanic path, how to embrace your unique spiritual gifts, how to do the work, how to embrace your unique spiritual gifts, how to do the work, and we also have this aspect of that self-healing and going at your own pace and discovering things about yourself and working with your inner child and healing your past traumas and all of these things. And so it's like we're walking these paths at the same time of understanding that we can be learning and we can be embracing the path and we can be bringing those tools into our toolkit and we can be learning how to walk the shamanic way in an educational way and, at the same time, be doing our healing work, be doing our aligning work, be clearing stuff out in a way that feels gentle. We had a student sharing in our closing call about how she didn't think shadow work could be that gentle. She was always so scared to do shadow work until she came into our course and realized that it just felt like learning, it just felt like self-discovery, it just felt like looking within and being like, wow, I'm a really cool person. Here are all of these like array of experiences and traits and beliefs and all of these things that I now get to explore because I have the toolkit, I have the support from my teachers and my fellow students, and I know myself enough to know that I have the strength to walk up the stairs right, and so I'm really excited for Soul Rising to start on September 14th.

Speaker 1:

Early bird pricing is now available. It'll be available until the end of August. So if you want to hop on a 15-minute call with us completely for free, just to see what the program's about, where are you at, is this the right next step for you? If it's not, we're going to tell you.

Speaker 1:

But if this is the space for you and you have questions, we want to meet with you. We want to talk with you. Get on a free call with us and we'll just jam and see is this the right next step for you? Or if you're like, hell, yes, I'm in. This is what I want to do. We'll put the link below and you can enroll for early bird pricing now, like I said, that's available through the end of August, so this is the lowest price and we do have very extended payment plans available so that it can be financially accessible, spiritually accessible, like all of the things. We want this to be open for everyone, because we really believe that if everyone in the world did this work, the world that we live in would be a very different, very beautiful place.

Speaker 3:

It's like an invitation to be if there's going to be any addictions. It's like be addicted to you and your own work and your own like self process of healing and releasing versus what's out there, you know, but I'm not against it, I just like we're saying the intention. Have that intention and hold strong space for yourself.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely Beautiful. Well, thank you all so much as always for listening. Be sure to check out Soul Rising, if you haven't, and join our email list for more updates about what we have coming up in the community. And until next time, may you awaken to the whispers of wisdom rising from within. Thanks for tuning in to today's show. The Wisdom Rising podcast is sponsored by Moon Rising Shamanic Institute. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcasting app and be the first to know when we release a new episode. You can find us on Instagram, facebook, youtube and TikTok at Moon Rising Institute, or visit our website moonrisinginstitutecom to learn more about our mission and find future opportunities to connect with our community of shamanic mystics. Once again, thank you for sharing space with us today, and until next time, may you awaken to the whispers of wisdom rising from within.