Wisdom Rising

Therapeutic Shamanism, Mental Health, and Soul Retrieval with Paul Francis

• Christine Renee, Isabel Wells, and Shantel Ochoa • Season 1 • Episode 13

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Can ancient Shamanic wisdom offer solutions to modern mental health challenges? Join us in a thought-provoking conversation with Paul Francis, a renowned author, Shamanic practitioner, and psychotherapist, as we explore the profound roots of Shamanism and its contemporary adaptations. We travel back to tribal times where animist belief systems facilitated a deep connection with nature and Spirit, and discover how these timeless practices can be adapted to address the mental, emotional, and spiritual disconnections we face today. Through Paul’s unique expertise, we uncover practical tips for those starting their Shamanic journey and learn about the common obstacles people encounter in reconnecting with their true selves.

How can we integrate the teachings of shamanism and psychotherapy for a holistic approach to health? In this episode, we delve into the intersection of these two fields, highlighting the need for a connection with the non-human world within therapeutic practices. We examine how traditional psychotherapy often falls short in addressing modern disconnections from nature and how Shamanic practices like soul retrieval can be enriched with concepts such as attachment theory. Paul emphasizes the importance of ethics in Shamanic practices and the valuable lessons we can learn from indigenous cultures to foster personal and communal growth.

We delve into the concept of soul loss, exploring how the everyday demands of contemporary life exacerbate this issue, making it harder to reintegrate retrieved parts of ourselves. We discuss how indigenous traditions provided communal support structures, rites of passage, and inherent connection with nature, which are largely missing in modern society. Finally, Paul reflects on the non-hierarchical nature of animism and the importance of practicing shamanism with cultural sensitivity. This episode offers a compelling guide to reconnecting with our true selves and the world around us, enriched by Paul’s deep insights and practical advice.

Connect with Paul:
www.therapeutic-shamanism.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/Therapeutic.Shamanism
https://www.instagram.com/therapeutic_shamanism/
https://x.com/ShamanicUK

Moon Rising Shamanic Institute Links:
Website: https://moonrisinginstitute.com/
Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/moonrisinginstitute
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/moonrisingmystics
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/moonrising.institute
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@moonrisinginstitute

Book a session with Isabel: https://calendly.com/into-the-deep/schedule

Book a FREE 15 minute connect call with Izzy: https://calendly.com/moonrisinginstitute/connect

Book a session with Christine: https://calendly.com/christinerenee/90-minutes-intensive

Book a FREE 10 minute connect call with Christine: https://calendly.com/christinerenee/10-minute-connect-call-srpt

Speaker 1:

It's time to remember your divine purpose and limitless potential. Welcome to Wisdom Rising, the official podcast of Moon Rising Shamanic Institute. Join shamanic Reiki practitioners Christine René, isabel Wells and Chantelle Ochoa as we guide you on a journey of radical self-discovery and spiritual guidance. Each week, we'll dance through the realms of shamanism, mysticism, energy, healing and personal development to illuminate your path to true healing and self-sourced wisdom Through weekly inspired conversations and interviews with leading spiritual and shamanic practitioners. We are here to help you acknowledge, reconcile and balance your energy so that you can awaken to the whispers of wisdom rising from within. Welcome back to another amazing episode of the Wisdom Rising podcast. I'm your host for today, isabel Wells, and I am so honored and excited to be joined with Paul Francis, an author, shamanic practitioner and psychotherapist who's here to share with you one of my favorite interviews that I've ever recorded yet on the show.

Speaker 1:

Paul grew up in England and went to Lancaster University where he studied philosophy and social anthropology, primarily focusing on tribal or shamanic cultures. After graduating, he opened a private practice as a complementary medical practitioner and psychotherapist and gradually developed his shamanic practice until, in 2007, he founded the Three Ravens College of Therapeutic Shamanism. He is the founder of therapeutic shamanism and has published three books in this series and is currently working on the fourth book. In today's episode, paul leans on his expertise as a social anthropologist, psychotherapist and shamanic practitioner to take us back to the origins of shamanism. Together, we explore the cultures in which shamanic practices developed and how their animist belief system greatly influenced their ability to connect with spirit through nature. Then we carry that animist belief system forward and explore how the shamanic practices and techniques that we know today need to evolve in order to fit the modern era in which we live. We focus our conversation around soul retrieval as the primary example of this evolution and explore how this advanced shamanic practice needs to evolve and transform in order to continue supporting our modern life. Along the way, we explore how psychotherapy and shamanism overlap the primary blocks that Paul sees in his students and clients in coming back to their truth, how limiting beliefs can greatly influence your healing journey, and we also provide some tips and techniques for those just starting out on their shamanic journey.

Speaker 1:

If you're interested in connecting with Paul, reading his books or joining his school, be sure to check out the links in the show notes and, of course, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so that you can get access to new episodes sooner. I hope that you enjoy listening to today's episode as much as I enjoyed interviewing Paul. It is by far one of my favorite episodes we've ever released on the show, so without further ado, let's dive in. Welcome back to another episode of the Wisdom Rising podcast. I am joined today by shamanic teacher Paul Francis for a conversation on shamanism and particularly his aspects and his perspective on therapeutic shamanism. So, paul, welcome to the show. I am so excited and honored to have this conversation with you today.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you very much. I'm really excited and of you invited me. It's very kind of you.

Speaker 1:

Beautiful. Well, as listeners will know, my favorite question to start these podcasts with is just in your own words can you tell us how you got to where you are today?

Speaker 2:

Right. Well, I mean, it's a big question, question, um. Well, in terms of shamanism, which is, I guess, is what you're mostly interested in um, I have people often ask what my sort of first shamanic experiences are, and I had a lot of experiences in childhood that with hindsight, when I see they were very shamanic at the time I had no idea what on earth was happening to me because I had nobody around me who understood shamanism or animism. I mean, I was brought up by a vicar in the church of England, bickers. I mean, my background was Christianity and so the kinds of things that were happening to me in terms of feeling connections with animals and plants and things I just wanted nobody to talk to about it.

Speaker 2:

I then went to university and, as well as the subject you had to sign up for, we had to sign up for two of the subjects in the first year and then make a choice at the end of the year. And I signed up to do anthropology and and I to this day I have no idea why I signed up for it, because I I had no idea what it even meant really. I just knew I had to do it. And there's a guy called, um uh, daniel quinn, who's written some amazing books this um, ishmael and story b and things you might know and he wrote a book called providence which is his sort of short autobiography, and he said it's often only towards the end of your life, as you get older, you can look back and see the times where your soul was calling to you. And that was definitely one of those times, because I ended up studying anthropology and even though at the time we weren't really using the word shamanic much, we were still I mean horribly using the term primitive cultures. Basically I was studying animist and shamanic cultures and when I finished university I thought, well, that was great fun for three years, but I have no idea what I'm going to do with an anthropology degree, anthropology and philosophy. But actually, as I look back over my life, it changed everything.

Speaker 2:

And so I turned to the psychotherapist in my 20s and was exploring shamanism a lot in that decade of my life as well. I felt very, very uneasy with what I came across in a lot of the shamanic world in terms of non-existent ethics from a psychotherapy point of view, a lot of quite abusive behavior really, and so I kind of went away from shamanism, or thought I did, but my psychotherapy work. I got very into body-centered work, which is often you're working with people who are kind of in quite altered state of consciousness and they're kind of you know they're describing their symptoms instead of metaphors and imagery and stuff and and I started to realize actually this was still very shamanic in many ways. And then in my mid-30s I suffered a series of events that led to me uh, long story, but basically ended up with really, really, really severe sort of suicidal, uh post-traumatic stress disorder and I completely broke down really, and it was at that point that shamanism just came crashing back into my life and I've never looked back since.

Speaker 2:

Really, I never, ever, ever thought I would be a shamanic teacher. Shamanism for me was something intensely personal and private, but it was probably my mid-40s. My guides started nagging me to teach and I refused for years and they just kept on and on and eventually I gave in and, to my surprise, people loved it and so I set up the college eventually in 2007, and then started publishing this book 2017, and here we are and it's my life basically, which is feels an honor and a privilege, really, and a joy.

Speaker 2:

So does that answer your?

Speaker 1:

question it does. That was beautiful. There are so many aspects of that journey that I would love to dive into, but one of my one of my first questions is you went from anthropology to psychotherapy. What prompted that switch and why did you decide to pursue psychotherapy? Highly dysfunctional child I used to have a psychology teacher who would tell me that research is me-search. In kind of the same vein, if we go into psychology to try and heal ourselves?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, that was absolutely the case for me. Again, honestly, though, I mean with that, I think that is the answer. I was absolutely trying to heal myself because I had a pretty terrible childhood, as most psychotherapists I know have had, actually. But again, it's just weird things. I finished university about a month earlier and my girlfriend at the time said oh, there's this um psychotherapy weekend going on. Do you want to come along with me? And I said, yeah, sure it was. But I remember sitting there in the first hour and experiencing people actually properly listening to each other and being kind and empathic, and I it felt like I was a fish being put back into water. Finally I just thought, oh god, this is where I want to be really. And so psychotherapy is the other straddle on the shamanism that's kind of completely central to my life really. I love psychotherapy with a passion.

Speaker 1:

And so how did that kind of Because you're the founder, I think I could call you of therapeutic shamanism, which is how I first found you and wanted to have you on the show for talking about that perspective. So how did that blend happen for you and how do you see those intersections?

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean, a lot of people do say that shamanism was like a sort of a, really a form of psychotherapy, and so it does. There is a lot of overlap between shamanism and psychotherapy. There are really significant differences too, and I love both of them equally and I think there is an enormous amount each of them can learn from the other. I mean, psychotherapy can learn a huge number of things from shamanism, but in particular the importance of connection with the other than human. Psychotherapy tends to be done very much in like a human bubble. I mean it's usually two humans sitting in a quite humanized environment and things. And although there are aspects of therapy that are going beyond that now, like ecotherapy things, I mean they're still very, um, small and kind of in their infancy, and shamanism kind of really central to it is that our psychological, emotional, spiritual health is fundamentally based on healthy connection with the other than human too.

Speaker 2:

So, and I think if psychotherapy doesn't take that on board, I mean a lot of what is wrong with us is our broken connection with the other human world and if therapy just keeps reducing everything down to humanness, it becomes part of the problem in the end, and it becomes a way of it's like the like the opium, you know the people like religion used to be. It just becomes a way of making people feel better without addressing this really fundamental issue.

Speaker 2:

so that's one of the many things I think psychotherapy needs to learn from shamanism, and shamanism, I mean it might. Shamanism is really so. It might sound absurd that it has anything to learn from something as new as psychotherapy, which is only just over 100 years old, let's face it. But psychotherapy arose to try to deal with the catastrophic mental health issues that we've been suffering for literally the last four to six thousand years with the birth of what we ridiculously call civilization, and that what we've been through over the last few thousand years has profoundly changed us. We're no longer wired in the same way that we were as indigenous people.

Speaker 2:

So a lot of the techniques that developed in indigenous cultures simply don't kind of stick as well, they don't last as well, they don't take root soul retrieval as an example and that's because they don't. They didn't evolve, understanding how we are now essentially and psychotherapy does, I mean, understands a lot of you know, like things like attachment theory and stuff understand a lot about the mess we're in mentally, emotionally now, and so you can take the traditional shamanic techniques and then tweak them and adapt them with the insights of psychotherapy to make them far more effective and much more appropriate to the times we live in now, and actually shamanism has always done this. Shamanism is one of the things I love about it is it's incredibly pragmatic, and there's a saying in shamanism does it grow corn, in other words, does it work?

Speaker 2:

and what shamans have always done is take this really really ancient body of knowledge and practices and they've always just adapted it to make it useful to the particular times they're living in. We need to do the same. We need to take those ancient techniques and practices and make them adaptable to the environment we live in, like our ancestors have always done, and psychotherapy can really help us do that. The insights Because you know we've learned a lot in the last 100 years of psychotherapy, so that's my passion is bringing the two together really Without diminishing either, hopefully, I mean I think you know the sum of the whole becomes greater than the parts.

Speaker 1:

And I'm curious can you give an example? You had mentioned soul retrieval as one of the practices that you tend to find doesn't stick as well in modern day practices. Can you share a little bit more about what your perspective on that is and how you're adapting it to find it to be more effective?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, sure. So really fundamental to Shamanism is the concept of soul loss. It's the idea that parts of us can leave our body essentially and I mean we actually do that all the time, like when we're daydreaming, you know, we can find ourselves on tropical beach or something you know, and then we come back to our body, and so, and when we dream at night and so on, there's nothing weird about leaving your body. The point is you should come back, and so soul loss happens when part of us leaves, gets traumatized at least, but it doesn't come back, and that leaves a hole in us and from a shamanic point of view that's dangerous. It makes us vulnerable, basically, to other things. It's like in a weakened immune system.

Speaker 2:

Things can get into us that shouldn't be in us, and so retrieval has always been a vital part of shamanism. It's the ability of a shaman to leave their own body on behalf of somebody, find that person's lost self-heart and then bring it back to them. Now some loss can happen for a lot of different reasons, like bereavement, for instance. Now indigenous people obviously suffer bereavements, and so they would go into grief and suffer soul loss. You know, we say when somebody dies, it feels like part of they've taken part of me with them or something you know. The light's gone out in the world, or something, and so indigenous people would suffer soul loss, of course, and they would be more than happy then for a shaman to do a soul retrieval and bring that part back.

Speaker 2:

Now one of the main ways we suffer soul loss in the present day is because of how we've been living for the last few thousand years. We're very proud often of how clever we think we are as humans because of the way we've domesticated other species, other animals and other plants to serve our needs. Other species, other animals and other plants to serve our needs. There's probably nothing on the planet we've domesticated and diminished as much as ourselves to fit into modern culture. I mean, you know, think about doing a nine-to-five job that you hate, or you know, or sitting down and shutting up at school for, you know, eight, ten years of your life, and so on and so on. We've, we've, really. I mean people are living lives that aren't making them happy a lot of the time in this culture and have no choice because of economics and so on. So in order to fit in with our dysfunctional culture, we send lots of parts of ourself away. So the main cause of soul loss these days is we send part of ourself away. Think about if you were brought up in a dysfunctional family where you weren't, it wasn't safe to be vulnerable. You send your vulnerability away. Or it wasn't safe to be boisterous and playful. You send that part of your way to fit in now. So when it comes to adulthood, of course people read about cell loss and think, oh, that sounds amazing. I have this real sense. You know there's something missing. Why wouldn't that person want that part back? The problem is, if they sent that part away often although part of them will yes, of course you know I want the soul retrieval part of them, the parts that sent that part away, are going to be resistant. I mean, what if you actually bring back your vulnerability? Does that really feel safe? Or you bring back your assertiveness or your anger or whatever it is you sent away and that wasn't an issue in indigenous cultures, because people were basically psychologically much healthier than us. They had no problem with bringing things back because they hadn't sent that part away left because of other causes.

Speaker 2:

So nowadays what I used to find was when people would come to me saying, oh, I want a cell retrieval. If I did just a traditional cell retrieval, it often just wouldn't stick. I mean, sometimes it would, but maybe one time in 10, I'd feel like it had done the big change it should do, but a lot of the time the change was partial or it wouldn't last and because basically, the parts that sent the silver part away just rearrange things, they just send it away all over again. Essentially people don't want to change because they're frightened of the consequences. So unless you address that, they're not ready for the soul retrieval. You have to negotiate with the parts that are worried and resistant. So what if we brought your anger back? How do you actually feel about?

Speaker 2:

that or your vulnerability and until you've actually worked with those parts and a lot of psychotherapy is understanding about we have parts of self that we need to dialogue with, and so on. If you do that work, then you can do the soul retrieval and it'll stick. It's not a massive thing to do, but it makes all the difference. So that's one example. Really. Another just quick example is, as well as soul loss, the other way we get seriously from a shamanic perspective is what's called power loss, and that what this means is disconnection from the greater than human world, from nature, basically Now, indigenous people.

Speaker 2:

That wasn't an issue. They lived in and were part of nature, not apart from it, and so they never developed any techniques around this, whereas now, obviously, when people come in off the street for a shamanic work, they usually live in lives that are completely disconnected from nature, and so we need a whole other set of techniques to address that issue as well. That, again, just aren't there in indigenous shamanism. So there's lots of examples I could give, but it's just a question of taking those short things and and then looking at well, actually you know, how does this work or not work in the present day, and how can we adjust that does?

Speaker 1:

that make sense.

Speaker 1:

It does, and I love hearing you talk about that.

Speaker 1:

One of the things that I tell our students all the time is this idea that one of the very first things we learn how to do in this modern life is how to deny ourselves, to step away from ourselves, to, like you said, pull away our vulnerability or assertiveness or these things that we learn to see as less than or not enough or dangerous in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1:

And so that process of learning to be open to yourself again, I think it is an aspect of shamanic techniques that, like you said, it wasn't part of those core original teachings and it is very much a modern perspective and a modern experience and I think that in that, having techniques and things like shamanism and working through those core limiting beliefs and learning how to process those instances that taught you that who you are wasn't enough or wasn't safe or wasn't whatever it was, learning to process through those and rewire that story is such an important aspect of it and that's something that we learn about shamanic techniques and there are great studies right now showing that we're changing our neural pathways when we do something like a shamanic journey and it's like that process of taking psychotherapy or one of my favorites is EMDR for processing trauma and those neural pathways and resetting those, so that then that shamanic work can go even deeper, because our subconscious mind has created space for it.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, that's absolutely right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And these are things that um, we don't live in a culture that generally supports us in doing this. It's. It's difficult doing this stuff in this culture. It's quite heroic really, was indigenous cultures just weren't like that. There's a, there's um.

Speaker 2:

I read once about, uh, in the inuit cultures, if you didn't get on with your birth family, you were absolutely as a child you had the right to go into any other igloo and those people had to adopt you basically. So it was kind of recognized that you need to be brought up by the community and that there would be people in that community who would be best suited to do that not necessarily your birth parents. And in hawaii, when a child was born, the kahuna, the shaman, would appoint an adult to watch that child an elder. It was usually to watch that baby for the first year of its life and then on the child's birthday, the whole community would be called together and the elder would say what they had seen of that child's soul potential and who best in the community could help that child to blossom into that and who best in the community could help that child to blossom into that. So what John says indigenous cultures were designed to help people grow and blossom emotionally, psychologically, spiritually.

Speaker 2:

All indigenous cultures have the rites of passage in adolescence that were the initiation into adulthood, and that was really about what we would, in psychotherapy, call becoming a fully functioning person, or what did Maslow? A self-actualized person. That's what he called it. The cultures were designed to help people blossom and grow. We're not living in those cultures anymore, and so we have to find ways of doing that now, and shamanism can play a huge role in that.

Speaker 1:

Essentially, I'm curious in your practice and with your students and your clients, what are some of the most common ways? I know you touched on a few of them working a nine-to-five job, putting yourself in kind of a school box for eight hours a day but what are some of the most common ways that you find that people go through that process of denying themselves or stepping away from that inherent state where they are putting themselves in a place of power loss or soul loss?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Well, in childhood, obviously, we are experimenting, we're trying strategies out, and the solutions we come up with are designed to help us cope with the environment we found ourselves in, usually a family unit and the school environment and so on. But round about I mean, it depends on which psychological theory you believe but round about the age of six, seven, eight, we tend to have settled on strategies and then we simply stop actually playing these out for the rest of our adult life. And, of course, often what brings people to therapy is the kind of these aren't working anymore for them but they don't understand why. So they have to kind of uncover their strategies, dismantle them and develop healthy ones. Of course, now, indigenous cultures understood this as well. That's what childhood was about. But they also understood that when you get to adolescence you have to make a shift from being your childhood construct to actually being an adult and this was hardwired into these cultures.

Speaker 2:

They really understood the importance of this. The cultures were really based around helping people make this transition into proper record. We don't have that anymore. So what we have is in teenage times, you know, you are experimenting with different identities and so on and so on, but there's no guidance and so most people don't actually individuate in a very healthy way in that time. They simply muggle through and then it kind of hits them again in middle age or something you know, because they've never really found themselves.

Speaker 2:

So most people basically are stuck in childhood, in this culture and stuck in a whole pile of adaptive strategies and wonky concepts about who they are and things. They're not actually what their real self is at all. So in Shamanism we differentiate between what we call our middle world self, which is this day-to-day reality self, and our true soul, which is this day-to-day reality self, and our true soul, which is a different thing again, and your true soul is actually the real blueprints of what you were meant to be. But I mean, this truth is that in these days most people will live and die never, ever actually knowing who they truly are. They are just living out a whole pile of beliefs about who they are and how they should behave, and so on and so on. I mean it sounds awful to say, but it is true. I mean it's catastrophically awful and nevertheless it's true. I mean it's catastrophically awful and nevertheless it's true. I mean what a terrible waste of human life the last few thousand years has been.

Speaker 1:

And that's you touched on it as well, but that is one of my personal favorite aspects of a shamanic practice is we've made such great strides as a culture right In some ways, of how we care for ourselves and our perspective of our mental health and the frameworks that we can use to heal them and at the same time, like you said at the beginning, the more we dive into those and the more importance and value we attach to healing our mental state, the further it takes us from healing that soul state and that spirit state and aligning the two.

Speaker 1:

And I think that's something that right now, it's a gap that I see. When we do research in psychology, we're always taught to identify the gaps in where the current knowledge is, and that's something that I see as a big gap right now is we've put so much emphasis and importance on the mind and on mental health that we have stepped away from and lost the importance of that soul health and that soul alignment and your power and truth, and I'm so grateful to find people like you who are dedicated to bridging the gap between the two and finding the ways that they can align and be balanced, because there's there is a balance that has to take place. It can't just be one or the other, it has to be all of it absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, the.

Speaker 2:

I mean we have made enormous strides over the last 100 years so in terms of, you know, psychotherapy and understanding mental health. But I think it's no coincidence that in that time we're also seeing a resurgence of interest in shamanism. It's, it's when it's, because it's part of trying to regain our sanity essentially. But you're absolutely right, I mean the mental health issues. I mean understanding on a mental level has its place, but what soul gives is much, much deeper roots. For that, essentially, it provides a much, much deeper fertile ground for that to grow in really um and it is a missing piece in psychotherapy.

Speaker 2:

I mean all psychotherapy, but most psychotherapy obviously still, although I think if we were having this conversation in you know 50 years time, I think that would have changed a lot as you were still here I hope so, I hope so well, I don't think I will be I'm curious.

Speaker 1:

One of the things that you've we've touched on throughout this conversation is that development in culture, and one of the things that you put so beautifully was the need to continue to adapt to our current circumstances, and there's a conversation that's been happening in our community, in particular recently, around things like cultural appropriation and how we can honor and respect our ancestors, while also acknowledging that need for maintaining awareness of the times that we're in. And I'm curious to speak to you about this as someone who has that background in anthropology, as well as the psychology and shamanic aspects of it. What are your perspectives around that conversation?

Speaker 2:

of it? What are your perspectives around that conversation? Let's be honest, I'm a white male of a certain age, of things I mean, I'm a, you know, I'm aware of my privileges, um, and at the same time I try to, you know, be aware of them. But I'm not perfect, obviously, but I do. With my shamanic work, I have tried very hard to draw on what's called core shamanism and not any particular indigenous cultures. So I mean, if anyone listening doesn't know, so the anthropologist mich Harner. He was studying different shamanic cultures across the world. What he realized was that underneath the different cultural variations he found, there is what he called foreshamanism, there's a core set of principles and practices and beliefs, and these are extraordinarily consistent throughout the world, I mean to a degree that is quite extraordinary. And so in 1980, I think it was he published his book the Way of the Shaman, and a lot of the modern revival of shamanism is down to that book.

Speaker 2:

I mean, there are criticisms people have upon this work, but we owe him an enormous debt of gratitude as well, I think, and so my approach has been very much to try to draw on core shamanism, not any particular tradition, not the least because I live in the UK and when I was exploring shamanism sort of around 20 seasons things I mean there is no UK shamanism, original indigenous shamanism obviously. So we were having to draw on rituals and practices and things from you know different parts of the world. But it just used to feel weird to me to be sat in a terraced Victorian house in industrial northwest England chanting things from Mongolia or something. It just used to feel weird as well as being as being cultural appropriation. So I stopped it all. I stopped really looking at different cultures for a while and I decided to learn just directly from my guides as much as possible, and so I would say most of what I teach is absolutely not culturally specific at all.

Speaker 2:

Shamanism itself is everybody's birthright. We're around 200,000 years old as a species, Homo sapiens, and for at least 190,000 years of that we lived and breathed animism and shamanism. It was the way we experienced the world and lived in the world. So it is everybody's birthright and it's trying to draw on that really ancient wisdom and finding ways of applying it that are relevant to the cultures we live in. That's what I'm interested in, rather than any particular modern-day indigenous versions of it. What's been trying to be really sensitive to the understandable pain people have around that?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and I think it's a conversation that it does have so many different layers to it and, of course, like you said, as to white people of certain privilege, it's hard to have a well-rounded conversation about it. But I appreciate your perspective on that, because it's one that at Moon Rising we agree with, of this idea of looking at those core principles of shamanism. And Michael Harner was such a powerful person in bringing shamanism to the West, not least because he did it in such a respectful way of, as he traveled to these cultures and he experienced these practices, it was always with getting permission. There's not anything that he put in his books or in his teachings that he did not have explicit permission to bring back. And so I think when we look at that and when we look at those consistencies that happened across time and geography and culture, it really is to me that understanding that, like you said, shamanism is our birthright because we are nature and we are spirit and those are just the ways that we inherently know how to connect and how to return to our roots.

Speaker 1:

And sometimes I wonder, looping this back to our previous conversation, I wonder how much of that inherent knowing right, because there are things like the shamanic journey and connecting with our guides and power animals that are consistent across culture and time and geography. And to me that shows that there is that inherent pull towards these ways of connecting with ourselves and with what you're calling the other than human. And I wonder sometimes if that inherent knowing that we all have this ability to connect and to go deeper and to be part of something bigger than ourselves that transcends this world, I wonder if that leans into and adds to that process of denying ourselves and how much soul loss and power loss we're seeing in today's day and age because we have this inherent knowing of our connection and yet we live in a culture that doesn't allow us to explore that or encourage us to explore that in these ways in these ways.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, I completely agree. Sorry, I've lost my train of thought.

Speaker 1:

Sorry, was there a question there? No, there was just an observation. But I am curious you had mentioned in answering a question previously about this middle world and how we are. We can do that shamanic work whether we're in that trance-like state that you were seeing in your clients or we're in this daily waking life, and I'm curious if you could share a little bit more about the middle world, and I know you speak about it in some of your books, so I'd love to hear your perspective on that yes, and it also reminds me of what I was going to say as well.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, I mean, obviously we live in a largely kind of quite it's quite an irrational culture in many ways, but it's a culture that's kind of quite left-brain dominated, obviously, and so a lot of people kind of look at things like shamanism and think it's just woo-woo and nonsense. And I honestly genuinely have come to understand that shamanism is actually our sanity. It's actually not so much shamanism animism because shamanism is just a aspect of a much bigger thing called animism but that animist way of being, that living in right relationship, respectful relationship with all beings that means all the other than human beings as well, and things like the ability to do shamanic journeys and to feel that sort of sense of connection, to be connected with ourselves. That is actually our sanity. And if you actually look at the true color sweep of human history, that is what we were doing for the bulk of it, for 95 percent of it.

Speaker 2:

And so indigenous people sometimes say about sort of modern day culture that we're insane, and it's not just a turn of phrase, I mean, they're literally a meaning you have gone insane. So what passes as normal these days, this kind of over rationalising and disconnection from the other human. It's not sane at all. But you know, we think it's normal and so people do dismiss the fact that. Just the sheer horror of how disconnected we are from nature. Um, I mean, my partner, I got to the stage and I've been watching a tv program or something and there's like an aerial shot of the city. We're both spontaneously kind of looks terrifying, you know, because it is insane. There are millions of people there living completely disconnected from nature and so on and doing jobs that they don't like and so on. And this is, in journalism, what we call the middle world. This is the kind of everyday existence and, uh, our modern day human and creative middle world is, by any sane measure of a culture. It's deeply insane.

Speaker 2:

Um, I mean our mental health crisis we live in. I mean, if you look at sort of graphs of anxiety levels of the years, I mean it, the trajectory is terrifying depression and so on, and we're in an absolute mental health crisis. Uh, we've got in a profound inequality where what is it like? Eight people in own over 50 of the world's wealth and resources and so on. Uh, and you know, worst of all, we've created the anthropocene extinction because of human activity, extinction rates anywhere between 20 to 200 times higher than they would be from natural causes. I mean, you know, we are on the trajectory to wipe out anything up to 90 percent of the animal and plant species on the planet. I mean, this is not a sane culture, is it? Um, and so this is what we mean by the modern human?

Speaker 2:

middle world and the things we can do within that to try to fix it.

Speaker 2:

I mean, there's you know there's lots of emergency measures we need to take, but ultimately the the deep fix is, rather than just carrying on doing the kind of things we've been doing for the last few thousand years. If we actually look back to when were we saner? When did we have better relationships with each other and with the other than human? You're looking back at anonymous cultures. So if we take the principles and templates of those to rebuild our culture on, then we stand a chance. Without it, we're lost. Indigenous people sometimes refer to those templates as the original instructions or the original songs or the original answers or so on. And that's what we've lost. And those are the things that kept us sane for 190,000 years or so on. And that's what we've lost. And those were the things that kept us sane for 190 000 years or so, and it was very much.

Speaker 2:

The role of the shamans was to make sure that happened. Um, a lot of people think the role of the shaman is doing shamanic healing and that was obviously part of it doing things like soul retrieval. But the biggest role of the shaman was for culture to work. Most people need to just take the stories of the culture at face value. They need to think not too deeply about things. They just need to get on with what they've told. And then there's a small number of people actually control the stories of the culture. That small number of people actually control the stories of the culture. That small number of people in this culture, or the psychopaths and sociopaths and narcissists, were given power to. In half the animist cultures it was the shamans. That was their job. Job and part of the training of the shamans was to as an apprentice shaman.

Speaker 2:

You would have been de-socialized quite a lot, uh, quite deliberately. So you would go through months where you were told that when everybody stood up, you had to sit down. When other people sat down, you'd stand up. You had to walk backwards, you had to wear your clothes backwards, you had to sit down. When other people sat down, you'd stand up. You had to walk backwards, you had to wear your clothes backwards, you had to. You couldn't speak normally, you had to shout at full volume or you weren't allowed to talk at all. All sorts of things. You just messed up your socialisation, basically, and also you betrothed a lot of knowledge and things as well.

Speaker 2:

The idea was you needed somebody who understood how cultures actually work, that they're actually made up of stories that people just believe, because then you've got somebody who can keep the stories on track according to the original healthy instructions. And that really was the role of the shaman. They were the guardians of our sanity. They kept cultures on the straight and narrow. Basically, we turn away from that and we kill our shamans. Look what's happened for the last 6,000 years. This is the mess we're in.

Speaker 1:

Something that I find fascinating about that process too, of the shaman being almost like the truth keeper for a culture or a tribe, is they were doing it in counsel, with their guides and with spirit. There was not this leaning on human understanding that we see today, and I think so much of that is where we're finding that disparity now.

Speaker 2:

It's such a brilliant point, that's such a good point, absolutely so. The true shaman, the power of a true shaman, doesn't come from the human and their own ego and things. Some of them have a role, you know, to the learning stuff and things, but it comes from the guides. Essentially, what a shaman was was an intermediary between the human world and the human. And so the role of the shaman was to know the teachings from the other than human, the teaching from mountain, other than human, the teaching from mountain, the teaching from bear, the teaching from wolf, the teaching from springtime, you know, the teaching from autumn, and so on and so on, and to bring these teachings to the community essentially, and also to say look, you know, the other than human is upset with us doing this, we need to make an end, and so on and so on. So to be the advocate and the intermediary of the other human is upset with us doing this, we need to make an end, and so on and so on. So to be the advocate and the intermediary of zealand human, that was their role essentially. So it was really firmly rooted in understanding that humans are a tiny part of the ecosystem, I mean in this culture.

Speaker 2:

Derek jensen. Do you know his work? Yeah, the Myth of Human Supremacy is one of my all-time favourite books and he says you know, a lot of what's gone wrong is with modern culture is it's based on this myth of human supremacy. We see ourselves as some pinnacle of evolution and the cleverest of every species. And if you talk to indigenous people and say you know who are the wisest of the people, they'll usually say the stone people. Now, we don't even think of the stone people as being alive, but to the animists they absolutely are. They are the oldest and the wisest of all people. And then they'll say then the next oldest of the plant people?

Speaker 2:

well, it's in the last 10, 20 years, scientists even start to recognize that plants are sentient, and the stuff that's now coming out now about plant sentience is mind-boggling to a lot of people. Animists have known this all the time. And then the next most intelligent, wise people are the other animal people. The least wise are the humans. We're the children. That's why we need all this guidance and teaching from the other than human people. There's a lovely story, can I? I forgot something to tell the story please absolutely there's a lovely story.

Speaker 2:

I mean I think I wrote one version of it in one of our books, but it's you'll find different versions of it in most cultures throughout the world.

Speaker 2:

There's this lovely story that basically goes that the animal people became really furious with us humans because of how we're living and disrespecting the world, so they decided they're going to get together and kill us all, which you know.

Speaker 2:

If they did that, they could absolutely do that, but the plant people and the stone people heard about this, so they called a great council of all the peoples and at the council, the stone people and the plant people said to the animal people look, we understand your anger and what you're feeling about the humans, but what you're planning to do is not in accordance with Great Spirit.

Speaker 2:

It's forbidden. Instead, the humans are just children who have lost their way and they need our help and guidance. Children who have lost their way and they need our help and guidance. So at that council, every single different type of plant and every single different kind of animal and every single different kind of stone people took on a healing gift and teaching that they would give freely to any human who asked for it. And that's the point of traveling to what's called the lower world in Shaolinism. It's the place where we can receive the healing, teaching and gifts from the much wiser than us other than human people, and that's how we lived sanely for nearly 200,000 years until we went mad and started to believe that we're the best.

Speaker 1:

And I find it really interesting that you can even see that in threads of of different practices in humanity. You know, like, the difference between, when we look back, things like, um, herbalism, herbalism, we're huge and now we have modern medicine where you know, we still have some of the plant in there, but it's not about the plant anymore, and even just that transition is so symbolic of this switch that has been made. But I'm curious if you could and perhaps we should have done this at the beginning but I'm curious if you could give us your definition of animism, because we've talked about it so much in this conversation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm glad you asked actually, because, I mean, shamanism is the kind of buzzword that brings people in these days, and lots of people now have heard of shamanism, but not as many people have heard of animism and really, um, the problem with that is then you get a lot of people learning shamanic techniques, but they're practicing these as a modern-day human, not as an animist, and that's a completely different thing. Original shamans were all animists. So, basically, animism it's not a belief system, it's not religion. It's literally a way of experiencing the world around you. What animists experience is that everything around us is alive and conscious. We live in a world of different peoples, only some of whom are human, and that's really not just a belief. When I'm teaching students, it starts off as a belief to kind of understand intellectually that could be true, but as you do the practice, you start to experience that this is actually true, as you start to regain your sanity, really, and so animists live in a very reciprocal awareness with the world around them and a respectful awareness and they.

Speaker 2:

The other thing that's key to animism is it's completely non-hierarchical. One of the things I found in teachers I found it in myself as well is it's astonishing how deeply ingrained into us hierarchy is, hierarchical thinking. I mean we use things like high vibration or raising your vibration levels or higher states of consciousness, or, you know, ascending as opposed to you know the depth, and so on. Our language is full of hierarchical value judgments and we think hierarchically, and the myth of human supremacy is all. Part of that, of course, was. Animism is sometimes being described as a spiritual round table. All the different people are equal, essentially there is no hierarchy whatsoever.

Speaker 2:

So in animism, humans are absolutely not special. We are a tiny, tiny part of a huge ecosystem and um, and so we live with that awareness of that. Everything is is alive, everything is conscious and everything is sacred, and that's how we should live, and and that's just a very, very, very different fundamental story to base a culture on to modern day culture. So what shaman is is an animist who also has the ability to leave their body at will, travel the shamanic realms, communicate with the other than human and then bring back the gifts of healing and teaching from the other than human world.

Speaker 1:

And we had touched on before we hit record. We had touched on our thoughts on the word shaman versus shamanic teacher. I'm curious if you could speak to that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it's up to everyone to do what they want. But when Horner was putting together core shamanism, he was very clear about us referring to ourselves as shamanic practitioners and not shamans, and it was out of respect. I mean you were mentioning how respectful he was earlier. I mean, an actual shaman is somebody who would have been, if not from birth, certainly from early childhoods, that have had their gifts recognized and they would have been raised 24, 7 pretty much, in developing those gifts. Most of us in the West, you know, come to shamanism in our 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s. You know, students, we're never going to be actual shamans. We can be as shamanic practitioners. It's a bit like Buddhism. I mean, imagine if everybody who practiced Buddhism said they were enlightened, they were a Buddha. I mean that's absurd. The difference between a shaman and a shaman practitioner is the difference between being a Buddha or being a Buddhist like a practicing Buddhism. So I've never referred to myself as a shaman. I'm a shaman practitioner.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I agree, and I think it loops back to when we were talking about having that respect for other cultures, because I think there's something to that of, even as we're acknowledging the need to have an awareness of our current times and adapt for modern situations, I think it's also equally as important to recognize our ancestors and our roots and where we've come from and aspects of practice that should remain sacred and dedicated to those specific cultures that they were developed in.

Speaker 2:

Yes, absolutely, yes, yes, absolutely. So there are absolutely culturally specific practices that should be respectfully left in those cultures. Essentially, absolutely yes, absolutely, yes, yes, I agree.

Speaker 1:

Well, paul, it has been such an honour and a pleasure to talk with you, and I'm sure I could continue to do so for another three hours, so we may have to have you back on the show, but I'm curious as we wrap up for today is there anything that we didn't touch on that you would love to share with our listeners?

Speaker 2:

um, well, probably hundreds. I'll be very happy if you want me back at some point. I mean, it's just such a huge, beautiful, joyous, mind-blowing, fascinating topic, genre, way of being. It's just immensely beautiful. I mean there's so much more we could explore, but yeah, I'm aware of time as well.

Speaker 1:

It's been lovely meeting you and chatting with you.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, you as well, paul, and if our listeners wanted, and chatting with you.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, you as well, paul. And if our listeners wanted to connect with you or buy one of your books or take one of your courses, where could they find you?

Speaker 2:

um wwwtherapeutic-shamanismcouk.

Speaker 1:

I should have thought of a small we'll put all the links in the show notes so everybody can find you, but I always like to have you share anything about yourself that you'd like to leave our listeners with no, I mean, if you want to find out more.

Speaker 2:

Um, I've got three books printed so far. I'm working on my fourth and fifth one at the moment. Um, there's lots and lots of different courses on different aspects of shamanism, so, and there's piles of free stuff on the website. There's lots and lots of different courses on different aspects of shamanism, so, and there's piles of free stuff on the website. There's like loads of blogs, links to articles, other podcasts, videos, loads of stuff you can explore for free on the website.

Speaker 1:

So, um, yeah, take a look and see if it's for you beautiful and I always like to leave with one last question If you could give someone- just starting this journey, a piece of advice.

Speaker 2:

What advice would you give them? Oh, blimey, well, I would read. Let's see if it's for you. I would read a few bits for you. Basically, you will find the wider shamanic community, like most human communities in modern day cultures, is a bit of a mess. It's a mixed bag, it's a hodgepodge of all sorts of things.

Speaker 2:

Find your way around it and find a version of it that works for you really. So you know, if you want to find out if this version works for you, then you could have a look at my first book. Um, you know, read some other books about it. I suppose the biggest thing is, you will find lots of people trying to impose rules about this. Or, you know, you're not a real shamanic unless you follow this lineage or do this or do that things and honestly just trust yourself, follow your instincts, trust you got feelings. Um, don't let other people put you off. This is your birthright. Basically, um, yeah, don't let other people get in the way of it that's beautiful, beautiful.

Speaker 1:

Well, we will put the links to paul's website and his books, as well as michael harner's book, the way of the shaman, in the show notes if you're interested in checking those out. And in the meantime, paul, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. It has been an honor, a pleasure and a joy.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much for having me. It's absolutely been an honor and a pleasure and a joy as well. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's been great.

Speaker 1:

Beautiful. Thank you and until next time to everyone listening. May you also awaken to those whispers of wisdom rising from within. Thanks for tuning in to today's show. The Wisdom Rising podcast is sponsored by Moon Rising Shamanic Institute. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcasting app and be the first to know when we release a new episode. You can find us on Instagram, facebook, youtube and TikTok at Moon Rising Institute, or visit our website moonrisinginstitutecom to learn more about our mission and find future opportunities to connect with our community of shamanic mystics. Once again, thank you for sharing space with us today, and until next time, may you awaken to the whispers of wisdom rising from within.